Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")

[vitalikk2005]

My personal inclination is to favour the player who came there first, since he already has made some effort to grow/supply the industry in question. But such fine distinctions in fact constitute the policy of the server (to what extent competition is encouraged), and as such should be decided by server owner arbitrarily.

also i am sure opinions will differ pretty much about whether admins should do any decisions arbitrarily

No doubt it's great to discuss and see different opinions here, but I'm pretty sure that a broad consensus will not be possible on these fine details, as to how many tiles should be left free around an industry. That is why arbitrary decision is natural here. You could decide on the basis of maximizing fun for players, or even what would be easier for admins to enforce in-game.

And by the way, the 50% rule also looks good to me as it is now, being concise and easy to understand. If the idea of modifying it came from of a single obvious violation (with clusters of mines), the 50% part isn't controversial here, see my suggestion above:

Also, considering the possibility of funding clusters of industries as discussed here: http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=163.0, the following text could be added to the rules: "When funding new industry/town, make sure that the requirements as to the space available around it are fulfilled."

[YorVeX]

And by the way, the 50% rule also looks good to me as it is now, being concise and easy to understand. If the idea of modifying it came from of a single obvious violation (with clusters of mines), the 50% part isn't controversial here, see my suggestion above:

nah, the rule is in question because it often causes arguments between players and admins. for example it always causes the question whether we really want to be very exact with that, as a number like "50%" implies - when actually the rule was only added to prevent players from thinking they can satisfiy the general "don't block others out" rule simply by leaving 1 tile free (or any other too low number of tiles) and to guarantee another company "sufficient" space. that means you also need to define what "sufficient" is, that's how we came up with 50% (half for everyone simply sounds fair).

the problem is that calculating what is 50% in reality is not as easy as it sounds. do you only count tiles in the catchment area? or you also count tiles around the area that can be used by a station that just touches the catchment area of an industry on a corner (which would be all that is necessary to connect to an industry)? for cities it becomes even more complicated, because some parts of the city will get you more passengers than others (big houses vs. small houses).

so my new proposals go into the direction of refering to things both players and admins can see and judge more easily (e.g. size of the station), something that has more transparency will cause less arguments.
ST2 followed a different approach but the same basic idea with his suggestion about only looking at "sides" (a concept which i agree also increases transparency, but imho still leaves too many grey areas).

[ST2]

the ideia on the imgs I've posted is to show a imaginary line, splitting a industry/town in 2 sides. But do not need to millimeter(tile or half-tile ) precision; 1/2 tiles more to north, south, east or west still keep the ideia intact. To find the central point of a town/industry... simple: on the town taking the town name as reference and in industries joining the corners of the industry (set of industries) but as I said... don't need to have exact number of tiles precision.
I took the path of looking at "sides" of the elements (towns/industries) because, imo, is a good way to achieve the "Occupy at maximum 50% of the space around an industry/town" goal and values related to station sizes (limits or used) have a slight problem wich is the fact that the rails to serve the station(s) occupy as much or more space than the stations themselves.

For towns:
Completely forbid growing towns by building 'grids' of roads. (brisges/tunnels over/under rails and stations could be an exception. Towns are (at least as far as I know) allowed to build roads for themselves and grow quite well enough if decent services are offered.
This should imo be combined with allowing to build drive through-stops on town owned and  maybe even opponent owned roads.
Off course this brings the risk of buses blocking a town, but this can easily be prevented by forbidding full-load orders on drive trough stops in towns.

Added advantage of drive through stops in towns means less destruction of town roads and buildings.

Edit: some nice ideias here wich we can use for towns too PS: already allowed build drive-though stations in opponent owned roads

[alex879ro]

I agree with the change of the rule by replacing the 50% part with "Every player must leave a space of "

It`s simple, nobody has to do searches....And i think we can reach a decision here about the value of that space...

Any other interpretation would be much harder

The one with "leave a space for a station just like yours " poses a lot of problems. Don`t forget that we got also the k4 server where station limit is 25 x 25

It is already a master piece if you succeed on making 2 station 25 x 25 tiles at the same industry.....not to mention leaving place for another one.

[ST2]

As I said previously... all fixed values must be set by server. And again, is totally possible to make 2 stations of 25x25 ONLY in 1 side of the industry... the but is on space needed for rails too... understandable because occupy as much or more than the stations themselves. So, the values must be thinked in double, where half of it is for the station and other half for the tracks.
As Alex said, in k4 server, where station limit is 25x25 is hard to make both full stations sizes around a industry without almost claim it for private use.
For those who defend that a 10x10 station (example number... but remember... STATION) is enough to make full use of a secundary industry (deliver and take) by other player, why don't they use only that space too?

[alex879ro]

Ughh...cause it depends...if i wanna compete someone , i use that space. But there are 2 categories...the mainline and the competition....Depends on which of them I am...

[ST2]

Ughh...cause it depends...if i wanna compete someone , i use that space. But there are 2 categories...the mainline and the competition....Depends on which of them I am...

"competition" is familiar term to OpenTTD... but only that one...

[ST2]

the ideia of this post is to be a continuation of this one, mixing some options trying to make a concrete suggestion. Is more than obvious that a solution is required because this rule, currently, is not being respected, what is worse than having no rule at all. Taking in consideration the large differences available on station spreads among servers, and after talking yesterday with alex879ro, specific values would be more accurate on each server. But after thinking a bit better about it, I'll use the "maximum station spread" value as reference to get a specific value (round up used, when needed). Will have a specific value too automatically updated on rules even when maximum station spread changes in the servers.
Suggestion:
You must leave room around industries/towns for at least one other company to be able to build stations of...
 - Primary industries - ...at least half of the maximum station spread in length and width with access to the resource (type !limits to see it).
 - Secondary industries - ...the maximum station spread in length and width with access to the resource (type !limits to see it).
 - Towns - ...the maximum station spread in length and width with access to the resource (type !limits to see it). Build only the necessary roads to serve your stations
 OR
 - Towns - Build only on 1 side of the town like on this image 1 (or using 2 images for it: image 2 and image 3

Even that FIRS "introduces two new concepts; primary industries require regular deliveries of spare parts in order to grow, and secondary industries will increase their production whenever they get deliveries of two different cargos within the same month", the separation mentioned above keeps the gameplay.

The above suggestion was an attempt to make things more clear, with other approach of mixing xOR initial ideias, wich I think still keeps the freedom/fairness and gameplay even with big station spreads. It's only a ideia, anything to improve it or even a new one is always welcome

[ST2]

with CityBuilder around the corner, probably it's needed another approach on suggestions for rule #4 change, as in some others too...  how am I going to describe below:
For Primary industries I keep the suggestion made in previous post;

- Make Secondary industries claimable (private), wich would change rule #2 too. This would completely end the disagreements existing so far, making the games more fair in CB. Beyond that the players are already used to this rule on other servers;
OR
- Modify rule #2 and add the condition on that "to take Secundary industries production, player MUST deliver first the necessary raw material(s)" but will fall again in the definition of free space to leave around the industry and the fact that a player could deliver with only 1 truck, as Andreas said to be considered in accordance;

For Towns some of the previous post, a mix up or some new ideia. Ofc, for CB it also makes sense to make a division between Public and Claimed towns. But that's for later

Note: only trying to give suggestions that fits on all servers not being necessary to create sub-types of rules for each one or by player skills.

[Andreas]

I also think the rule for primary industries is a good idea. For secondary industries, I generally like competition, but in CB think 'private' industries is more desirable. I know out of experience that sudden competition on secondary industries during CB can ruin your game quite well...

I also don't think that a division between claimed and private towns should be a problem, because imo the difference should be apparent.

[ST2]

yeah Andreas, but for Secondary Industries there's lots suggestions above.... example: here

to explain my suggestions on SI:
Basically when I think on Secondary industries, i think on players delivering cargo and taking the goods produced from it. Mostly, this rule needs to be changed because of large station spreads. But... continuing my ideia about Secondary industries, try to make your main business based on the free space avaliable and set by the rules on a industry already used already used by other player. That will give you the values of space you need!! Less then the space you need to make full business is because it means competition to ONLY steal secundary production, as a way to get self profit and lower other player's income.
Basically my question is: how much space a player needs to make main business in a secondary industry already used by other player? (this answer is important because will set the space/tiles).
Note: The answer to last question must be related to server station spread or fixed values. But, as question is made, agree too that's enough space for your main business!

Well... was only to be a reply to Andreas... but escalated a bit to realities ingame, but please, don't forget the question above!

Edit: ofc, there's the solution of making secondary idustries private... as mentioned in previous posts

[Andreas]

I like the idea of only allowing competition if it is your main industry, it is simple and prevents competition just to ruin the other party. As for the free space, I think the most simple solution would be to leave at leat 2 of the 4 sides open, even with your tracks. This will be easy to undersrand and clear and it does not have to rely on calculations by the game.

[geo]

sincerly, i like this idea :at least the same size and shape as your own stations covering the same resource
because if i can make a station, another player should be able to do it too in the same way if he wants to
this is my opinion

[ST2]

so basically: how much space a player needs to make main business in a secondary industry already used by other player? given interesting answers as seen.

the "the 50% rule" is not a bad concept... only needs to be respected ^^

Since the 1st post on this thread there's lots of suggestions... now opinions about them or new ideias are still welcome

[Waldo]

Why is this post dormant? I'm seeing more and more people violating this rule nowadays. We either change it or strictly enforce it.