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Administration => Suggestions => Topic started by: YorVeX on September 05, 2012, 09:46:40 pm

Title: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: YorVeX on September 05, 2012, 09:46:40 pm

Quote

Occupy at maximum 50% of the space around an industry/town.

suggestions on how to change the rule

instead of working with percentages we could use hard values, as they can simply be counted within the game, so it's a lot more transparent to both players and admins and leaves less room for interpretation. we could say one of these things:

You must leave room around any industry/city for at least one other company to be able to build stations of...

#1	...at least the same size and shape as your own stations covering the same resource.
#2	...at least 5 tiles length with 5 tracks. (the real values have to be agreed on, 5x5 is just a random example)
#2b	...at least 5 tiles length with 5 tracks for loading and another 5 tiles length with 5 tracks for unloading (only if accepted by industry/city). (the real values have to be agreed on, 5x5 is just a random example)
#3	...the maximum station spread in length and width (type !limits to see it).
#4	...at least half of the maximum station spread in length and width (type !limits to see it).

another option would be:

#5

keep the 50% rule but make it get checked by software. admins and players can always type something like "!usage Mousewell Mines" and they get a list of all companies touching its coverage with the percentage from the coverage they use. We could even implement an automatic warning when someone exceeds 50%.

or we can simply leave everything as it is.  ;)

what do you think? any other ideas?

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: Geert on September 06, 2012, 02:19:54 am

as long as it is possible to build lets say a 20 x 20 station to drop lets wood, and a 20 x 20 to pickup goods at one lumbermill im happy!!


so i go with point 2

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: ST2 on September 06, 2012, 02:27:57 am

Quote from: Geert on September 06, 2012, 02:19:54 am

as long as it is possible to build lets say a 20 x 20 station to drop lets wood, and a 20 x 20 to pickup goods at one lumbermill im happy!!

so i go with point 2

Geert, so you agree on leave space for competitor build 2 stations of 20x20 plus the rails?

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: vitalikk2005 on September 06, 2012, 02:58:21 am

My suggestion: "Leave enough space around an industry/town for another company to be able to connect it to their network."

For primary industries with production under 300 most people use 2x7 railroad station (terminus or ro-ro) to connect. For higher-production industries (including secondaries) people might want to steal connect with 3 or 4 platforms, preferably ro-ro. For towns, we stress that no one builds roads on all sides of a town, thus preventing other companies to place a railroad station next to it. So, a player should leave space accordingly to this.

Also, considering the possibility of funding clusters of industries as discussed here: http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=163.0 (http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=163.0), the following text could be added to the rules: "When funding new industry/town, make sure that the requirements as to the space available around it are fulfilled."

PS. Congratulations on your 100th post, st2.  :)

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: Geert on September 06, 2012, 03:02:03 am

Quote from: ST2 on September 06, 2012, 02:27:57 am

Quote from: Geert on September 06, 2012, 02:19:54 am

as long as it is possible to build lets say a 20 x 20 station to drop lets wood, and a 20 x 20 to pickup goods at one lumbermill im happy!!

so i go with point 2

Geert, so you agree on leave space for competitor build 2 stations of 20x20 plus the rails?

you quote the #1 option

its handy to have a fixed and know amount of space you have to leave that why i like #2

i never said 20 x 20 for everyone

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: ZeroIncome on September 06, 2012, 01:22:16 pm

I agree with Geert, but in addition there should be a seperation between industries like Forest, Coal mine, Iron mine,...(1) and Lumber mills, Power stations, Factory,...(2)

For the 2nd group I think it's acceptable for two 20x20 stations (1 for loading, 1 for unloading). Since you an have that many trains going to 1 industry.

For the 1st group not even one 20x20 station is required. As other players have said a 2x7 or 3x7 station should suffice. As a rule of thumb I'd so only allowed to occupy 1 side of an industry.

Another reason is that industries in the first group cost a few mill to fund, while the second group costs under a mill.

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: vitalikk2005 on September 06, 2012, 05:27:16 pm

To clarify my suggestion, i'd like to add that I'm absolutely okay with opponents occupying 90% of space around an industry, as long as I will be able to place my station and incoming/outgoing rails comfortably, if I decide to connect to it.

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: YorVeX on September 06, 2012, 06:18:16 pm

Quote from: vitalikk2005 on September 06, 2012, 05:27:16 pm

To clarify my suggestion, i'd like to add that I'm absolutely okay with opponents occupying 90% of space around an industry, as long as I will be able to place my station and incoming/outgoing rails comfortably, if I decide to connect to it.

a rule should never need further clarification. of course i am aware that we are still in brainstorming mode and nothing is meant to be final yet  ;)
but just to give you a feeling what things have to be thought of i have attached some example pictures that all show situations perfectly valid by your rule "Leave enough space around an industry/town for another company to be able to connect it to their network." (given they are connected and used properly).

Example 1:
(http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/images/forum/example1_s.png) (http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/images/forum/example1.png)
here i was very kind, i even built you a street to the one tile i left for you so you can build the lorry station that i left enough space for. ain't that generous?

Example 2:
(http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/images/forum/example2_s.png) (http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/images/forum/example2.png)
now i even gave you enough space to connect a rail station, but only of a very small size compared to what i have constructed there. also i am leaving you barely any freedom to choose size, shape an direction for your station, i rather made you a stencil that limits you.

Example 3:
(http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/images/forum/example3_s.png) (http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/images/forum/example3.png)
unlike the first two this is from a real game and when the player was asked to leave space for other players his reply was "but i am leaving space". what he meant is that you could place 2x2 rail stations or simply bus stations everywhere - even in lots of places around the city, so he actually isn't blocking, right? when admins insisted his next offer was: of course when people ask for space i will remove signs so other people can place stations there too.
now that's better, but still forcing all the players to only use the 2 track stations he seems to like.

if you think these are rare or unrealistic examples let me tell you that these things happened so frequently before we had the extra "50% sentence" (and players were always arguing with admins how the rules don't forbid what they do) that they actually were the reason why we decided to add that sentence.

about the coverage area you are right technically it is perfectly sufficient if only one single tile within the coverage area is left free. but that rule could be satisfied coming with maximum limitations to other players whereas the 50% rule has the neat side-effect of also guaranteeing another company some freedom for creativity about how they place their stations.

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: vitalikk2005 on September 06, 2012, 07:35:04 pm

My personal inclination is to favour the player who came there first, since he already has made some effort to grow/supply the industry in question. But such fine distinctions in fact constitute the policy of the server (to what extent competition is encouraged), and as such should be decided by server owner arbitrarily.

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: YorVeX on September 06, 2012, 08:03:01 pm

Quote from: vitalikk2005 on September 06, 2012, 07:35:04 pm

My personal inclination is to favour the player who came there first, since he already has made some effort to grow/supply the industry in question

sure, in less extreme cases it might happen that a player has a 20x20 station there and you only got enough room for another 10x10 station (even when touching only one tile of the coverage area). and we got to ask ourselves if this maybe isn't just OK.

i know that naturally we think it's fair when people who "came first" get an advantage. but in OpenTTD there are some things you should think about:
1. you would discourage later-joiners, especially on crowded maps - the good news is: when this leads to you playing the second half of the 100 game years alone there would be no complaints about blocking anymore  8)
2. admin calls where players who built at the same spot at almost the same time argue about "who came first" are never easy to handle, with more advantages for first-comers we would increase the number and severity of such conflicts
3. where do you draw the line, only when someone has built his station a year earlier? or already when someone was only seconds faster? is clicking a second faster really something that must be rewarded? this is OpenTTD, not an ego-shooter...
4. even when forced to leave the same building options for a second company players already have an advantage when they are there first (e.g. more space to lead their rails through, on cities they might grow around his station over time and bring more passengers than a station at the edge of it...)
5. even the player who came first can benefit from a rule guaranteeing enough space around "his" industry: he can start with a smaller station without having to worry too much that later he won't have room to extend it to a bigger station, because another player took the space such an extension would have needed

when discussing these things there is one thing you should always keep in mind: limiting of player 1 is done to ensure enough freedom for player 2. you argue that player 2 should have more freedom? fine, but it means you limit player 1. so you rather want less limits for player 1? OK, but now you he can use his freedom to limit player 2.

the goal should be to find a good balance between limiting and freedom for all players (that's a generic idea about laws too).

also i am sure opinions will differ pretty much about whether admins should do any decisions arbitrarily (ZeroIncome is probably already preparing his protest as we speak  :P )

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: YorVeX on September 06, 2012, 08:28:51 pm

Quote from: ZeroIncome on September 06, 2012, 01:22:16 pm

I agree with Geert, but in addition there should be a seperation between industries like Forest, Coal mine, Iron mine,...(1) and Lumber mills, Power stations, Factory,...(2)

For the 2nd group I think it's acceptable for two 20x20 stations (1 for loading, 1 for unloading). Since you an have that many trains going to 1 industry.

For the 1st group not even one 20x20 station is required. As other players have said a 2x7 or 3x7 station should suffice. As a rule of thumb I'd so only allowed to occupy 1 side of an industry.

Another reason is that industries in the first group cost a few mill to fund, while the second group costs under a mill.

yep, that makes sense. so i think if we just take rule #2 and modify it to say "one 20x20 station for loading, one 20x20 station for unloading" that would cover it. for industries where you cannot unload anything it implicitly means that only the 20x20 loading station is allowed. or am i missing something?
i want to avoid making the rule too long, too complicated or having to put a full list of industry types there. even the few players that read the rules are likely to just go tl;dr for such entries and skip over to the next point.

i modified my first post to add this as #2b (didn't want to break the numbering)

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: YorVeX on September 06, 2012, 08:42:45 pm

Quote from: ST2 on September 06, 2012, 02:27:57 am

Quote from: Geert on September 06, 2012, 02:19:54 am

as long as it is possible to build lets say a 20 x 20 station to drop lets wood, and a 20 x 20 to pickup goods at one lumbermill im happy!!

so i go with point 2

Geert, so you agree on leave space for competitor build 2 stations of 20x20 plus the rails?

remember that the numbers are only examples. 20x20 is more than what is even the maximum size on some servers while e.g. on server 5 it would be the same as suggestion #3. 20x20 isn't much when a regular server 5 player says it while it can sound extreme to server 7 players.

in the end we would probably have to set different limits for all servers. this is the part i don't like so much about that rule, because we would need to provide a list of limits per server. this is what lead me to add #3 and #4 to suggestions, which work around this problem by relating directly to the server settings (that players can see through the GUI or by typing !limits).

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: ST2 on September 07, 2012, 03:29:07 am

There are several options to limit the player A or B giving the same opportunities to these players. So, lets try to make this as short as possible :)
I'll not include #2 or #2b because due the range of station spread among servers would need "almost" a rule for each one (or a specific value will be too high in some or too low in others).
My suggestions, using guideline options above:

A - Separate treatment of primary industries, secundary industries and towns. Option #4 to primary industries and #1 to secondary ones to keep balanced the space players need close each industry type; In towns could be option #3 (imo, #4 would be acceptable too) or build only on 2 contiguous sides of the town - This includes stations, tracks and player owned roads https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection35708566.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection35708566.png) - possible combinations: (1:2) - (2:3) - (3:4) - (4:1). Can be simplified with: build only on 1 side of the town like on this imgs https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection35708566_.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection35708566_.png) (or using 2 imgs for it: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection35708566_a.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection35708566_a.png) and https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection35708566_b.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection35708566_b.png)

B - Take the towns example of suggestion A and apply it to industries too - examples: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection41455362__.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection41455362__.png) (1:2) - (2:3) - (3:4) - (4:1) / https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection41455362_a.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection41455362_a.png) and https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection41455362_b.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection41455362_b.png)

C - Make secundary industries "claimable" by companies (since where's the most issues happen, taking the "clusters" ofc) and option #4 for primary industries. For towns could be #3, #4 or some of the above. The option of claiming secondary industries sinked on a previous poll, but there was no forum. So I thought pertinent to bring the matter again to discussion, despite the fact that I've voted on keeping full competition.

D - The option #5 concept itself is not bad ideia... taking the fact that industry area influence have different values for acceptance and deliverance (possible to check in information of each industry tile), wich ones would be taken in consideration? Examples: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/ex1_.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/ex1_.png) and https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/ex2_.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/ex2_.png) / https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/ex3_.png (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/ex3_.png) (can be checked clicking on every secundary industry tile). Imo this OpenTTD features can dificult a bit the calculation of what is the real space "still" available in a industry area influence. Not to mention the fact that the sum of free tiles around industry area can be more then 50% but not enough to build a decent station/hub and necessary tracks! Taking some technical issues that can create erroneous values and despite all these details... I still like the ideia :)

the above images are only examples, to convey the idea.

most of the players, when enter in a running game... what they search 1st? (if know about it) The industry list, ordered by production. And ofc, if the highest is a factrory producing goods (and full competition allowed), it's the first place that player will go (guessing) - or biggest town on map. Even if start competing, taking other player goods (in some secundary industry), he can even think on deliver there primary cargo... he can't! Some situations I've seen, that usually separates consciousness players with from the others, doesn't happens more (I think) because players simply don't have room to build. Ofc, there's players that only want the goods (sabotaging situations not included... I mean really to make profit)

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: YorVeX on September 07, 2012, 11:23:57 am

your screenshots look attractively clear and easy to understand at first glance. however, on second glance it leaves too much room for interpretation:
- where is the center of the city/industry? admins will say here, players will say there, at least for objects not in a simple rectangular shape
- your lines and in general the center might happen to be at the center of a tile - but you cannot use only a half tile, so can players build on this center line too or not?

what i really want to avoid is that admins get dragged into discussions about arguments on tile basis, like arguing about whether tile 152x636 can be used by a player or it is already part of the other side...

about your suggestion C i think we can do a new poll on the forum, as the result was quite close. though i don't know whether the forum is good argument, as polls here get less attention that on the main site. on the other hand when people also discuss it in text here it might increase the quality of their decisions, because they think about it more.
regardless of that i think it's too early, the last poll wasn't so long ago.

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: Andreas on September 07, 2012, 11:36:02 am

Hi,
I'm quite new to this server but have played on quite a number of other servers.
Let me start by stating that I am in favor of simple short rules, that do not need any extra explanation. More complex rules take a lot of the fun out of a game, and less people will actually read and understand them if they cover a whole page in stead of one or two sentences.

Now here I have some suggestions (some of witch have proven to work fine on other servers.):

For towns:
Completely forbid growing towns by building 'grids' of roads. (brisges/tunnels over/under rails and stations could be an exception. Towns are (at least as far as I know) allowed to build roads for themselves and grow quite well enough if decent services are offered.
This should imo be combined with allowing to build drive through-stops on town owned and  maybe even opponent owned roads.
Off course this brings the risk of buses blocking a town, but this can easily be prevented by forbidding full-load orders on drive trough stops in towns.

Added advantage of drive through stops in towns means less destruction of town roads and buildings.

Where it comes to primary Industries, I actually think that the rule is clear enough if it states that you should build in such a manner that there is enough space for opponents to build a decent station and rails. Primary industries seldom go over 400 units of production, so I can not see any use for stations bigger than four platforms.
I fear that adding space calculations and other similar solutions will be technically difficult to implement and have annoying side-effects.

For secondary industries I have always liked the rule that you should deliver to it first before you can take secondary cargo. off course even this rule has flaws like delivering one truck load a year and still taking goods, but at least it will prevent what ST2 described as people joining a running game and immediately start competition at a factory.

Alternatively I do not have any problems with the possibility of private secondary industries. They are not so expensive to fund, and it is quite difficult to leave decent space around them if you have a large drop-off and another pickup station. (especially when they are Ro-Ro)

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: vitalikk2005 on September 07, 2012, 01:46:38 pm

Quote from: vitalikk2005 on September 06, 2012, 07:35:04 pm

My personal inclination is to favour the player who came there first, since he already has made some effort to grow/supply the industry in question. But such fine distinctions in fact constitute the policy of the server (to what extent competition is encouraged), and as such should be decided by server owner arbitrarily.

Quote from: YorVeX on September 06, 2012, 08:03:01 pm

also i am sure opinions will differ pretty much about whether admins should do any decisions arbitrarily

No doubt it's great to discuss and see different opinions here, but I'm pretty sure that a broad consensus will not be possible on these fine details, as to how many tiles should be left free around an industry. That is why arbitrary decision is natural here. You could decide on the basis of maximizing fun for players, or even what would be easier for admins to enforce in-game.

And by the way, the 50% rule also looks good to me as it is now, being concise and easy to understand. If the idea of modifying it came from of a single obvious violation (with clusters of mines), the 50% part isn't controversial here, see my suggestion above:

Quote from: vitalikk2005 on September 06, 2012, 02:58:21 am

Also, considering the possibility of funding clusters of industries as discussed here: http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=163.0 (http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=163.0), the following text could be added to the rules: "When funding new industry/town, make sure that the requirements as to the space available around it are fulfilled."

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: YorVeX on September 07, 2012, 02:28:23 pm

Quote from: vitalikk2005 on September 07, 2012, 01:46:38 pm

And by the way, the 50% rule also looks good to me as it is now, being concise and easy to understand. If the idea of modifying it came from of a single obvious violation (with clusters of mines), the 50% part isn't controversial here, see my suggestion above:

nah, the rule is in question because it often causes arguments between players and admins. for example it always causes the question whether we really want to be very exact with that, as a number like "50%" implies - when actually the rule was only added to prevent players from thinking they can satisfiy the general "don't block others out" rule simply by leaving 1 tile free (or any other too low number of tiles) and to guarantee another company "sufficient" space. that means you also need to define what "sufficient" is, that's how we came up with 50% (half for everyone simply sounds fair).

the problem is that calculating what is 50% in reality is not as easy as it sounds. do you only count tiles in the catchment area? or you also count tiles around the area that can be used by a station that just touches the catchment area of an industry on a corner (which would be all that is necessary to connect to an industry)? for cities it becomes even more complicated, because some parts of the city will get you more passengers than others (big houses vs. small houses).

so my new proposals go into the direction of refering to things both players and admins can see and judge more easily (e.g. size of the station), something that has more transparency will cause less arguments.
ST2 followed a different approach but the same basic idea with his suggestion about only looking at "sides" (a concept which i agree also increases transparency, but imho still leaves too many grey areas).

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: ST2 on September 07, 2012, 06:17:56 pm

the ideia on the imgs I've posted is to show a imaginary line, splitting a industry/town in 2 sides. But do not need to millimeter(tile or half-tile :P) precision; 1/2 tiles more to north, south, east or west still keep the ideia intact. To find the central point of a town/industry... simple: on the town taking the town name as reference and in industries joining the corners of the industry (set of industries) but as I said... don't need to have exact number of tiles precision.
I took the path of looking at "sides" of the elements (towns/industries) because, imo, is a good way to achieve the "Occupy at maximum 50% of the space around an industry/town" goal and values related to station sizes (limits or used) have a slight problem wich is the fact that the rails to serve the station(s) occupy as much or more space than the stations themselves.

Quote from: Andreas on September 07, 2012, 11:36:02 am

For towns:
Completely forbid growing towns by building 'grids' of roads. (brisges/tunnels over/under rails and stations could be an exception. Towns are (at least as far as I know) allowed to build roads for themselves and grow quite well enough if decent services are offered.
This should imo be combined with allowing to build drive through-stops on town owned and  maybe even opponent owned roads.
Off course this brings the risk of buses blocking a town, but this can easily be prevented by forbidding full-load orders on drive trough stops in towns.

Added advantage of drive through stops in towns means less destruction of town roads and buildings.

Edit: some nice ideias here wich we can use for towns too :) PS: already allowed build drive-though stations in opponent owned roads

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: alex879ro on September 07, 2012, 07:59:51 pm

I agree with the change of the rule by replacing the 50% part with "Every player must leave a space of "

It`s simple, nobody has to do searches....And i think we can reach a decision here about the value of that space...

Any other interpretation would be much harder

The one with "leave a space for a station just like yours " poses a lot of problems. Don`t forget that we got also the k4 server where station limit is 25 x 25

It is already a master piece if you succeed on making 2 station 25 x 25 tiles at the same industry.....not to mention leaving place for another one.

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: ST2 on September 08, 2012, 09:34:46 pm

As I said previously... all fixed values must be set by server. And again, is totally possible to make 2 stations of 25x25 ONLY in 1 side of the industry... the but is on space needed for rails too... understandable because occupy as much or more than the stations themselves. So, the values must be thinked in double, where half of it is for the station and other half for the tracks.
As Alex said, in k4 server, where station limit is 25x25 is hard to make both full stations sizes around a industry without almost claim it for private use.
For those who defend that a 10x10 station (example number... but remember... STATION) is enough to make full use of a secundary industry (deliver and take) by other player, why don't they use only that space too?

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: alex879ro on September 08, 2012, 09:58:18 pm

Ughh...cause it depends...if i wanna compete someone , i use that space. But there are 2 categories...the mainline and the competition....Depends on which of them I am...

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: ST2 on September 08, 2012, 10:00:15 pm

Quote from: alex879ro on September 08, 2012, 09:58:18 pm

Ughh...cause it depends...if i wanna compete someone , i use that space. But there are 2 categories...the mainline and the competition....Depends on which of them I am...

"competition" is familiar term to OpenTTD... but only that one...

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: ST2 on September 10, 2012, 05:05:55 pm

the ideia of this post is to be a continuation of this one (http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=170.msg1018#msg1018), mixing some options trying to make a concrete suggestion. Is more than obvious that a solution is required because this rule, currently, is not being respected, what is worse than having no rule at all. Taking in consideration the large differences available on station spreads among servers, and after talking yesterday with alex879ro, specific values would be more accurate on each server. But after thinking a bit better about it, I'll use the "maximum station spread" value as reference to get a specific value (round up used, when needed). Will have a specific value too automatically updated on rules even when maximum station spread changes in the servers.
Suggestion:
You must leave room around industries/towns for at least one other company to be able to build stations of...
 - Primary industries (http://wiki.openttd.org/Category:Primary_Industries) - ...at least half of the maximum station spread in length and width with access to the resource (type !limits to see it).
 - Secondary industries (http://wiki.openttd.org/Category:Secondary_Industries) - ...the maximum station spread in length and width with access to the resource (type !limits to see it).
 - Towns (http://wiki.openttd.org/Towns) - ...the maximum station spread in length and width with access to the resource (type !limits to see it). Build only the necessary roads to serve your stations
 OR
 - Towns (http://wiki.openttd.org/Towns) - Build only on 1 side of the town like on this image 1 (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection35708566_.png) (or using 2 images for it: image 2 (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection35708566_a.png) and image 3 (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48606680/Selection35708566_b.png)

Even that FIRS "introduces two new concepts; primary industries require regular deliveries of spare parts in order to grow, and secondary industries will increase their production whenever they get deliveries of two different cargos within the same month", the separation mentioned above keeps the gameplay.

The above suggestion was an attempt to make things more clear, with other approach of mixing xOR initial ideias, wich I think still keeps the freedom/fairness and gameplay even with big station spreads. It's only a ideia, anything to improve it or even a new one is always welcome :)

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: ST2 on September 12, 2012, 01:50:43 am

with CityBuilder around the corner, probably it's needed another approach on suggestions for rule #4 change, as in some others too...  how am I going to describe below:
For Primary industries (http://wiki.openttd.org/Category:Primary_Industries) I keep the suggestion made in previous post;

- Make Secondary industries (http://wiki.openttd.org/Category:Secondary_Industries) claimable (private), wich would change rule #2 too. This would completely end the disagreements existing so far, making the games more fair in CB. Beyond that the players are already used to this rule on other servers;
OR
- Modify rule #2 and add the condition on that "to take Secundary industries production, player MUST deliver first the necessary raw material(s)" but will fall again in the definition of free space to leave around the industry and the fact that a player could deliver with only 1 truck, as Andreas said (http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=170.msg1021#msg1021) to be considered in accordance;

For Towns (http://wiki.openttd.org/Towns) some of the previous post, a mix up or some new ideia. Ofc, for CB it also makes sense to make a division between Public and Claimed towns. But that's for later :)

Note: only trying to give suggestions that fits on all servers not being necessary to create sub-types of rules for each one or by player skills.

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: Andreas on September 12, 2012, 09:50:46 am

I also think the rule for primary industries is a good idea. For secondary industries, I generally like competition, but in CB think 'private' industries is more desirable. I know out of experience that sudden competition on secondary industries during CB can ruin your game quite well...

I also don't think that a division between claimed and private towns should be a problem, because imo the difference should be apparent.

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: ST2 on September 13, 2012, 01:06:28 am

yeah Andreas, but for Secondary Industries there's lots suggestions above.... example: here (http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=170.msg1059#msg1059)

to explain my suggestions on SI:
Basically when I think on Secondary industries, i think on players delivering cargo and taking the goods produced from it. Mostly, this rule needs to be changed because of large station spreads. But... continuing my ideia about Secondary industries, try to make your main business based on the free space avaliable and set by the rules on a industry already used already used by other player. That will give you the values of space you need!! Less then the space you need to make full business is because it means competition to ONLY steal secundary production, as a way to get self profit and lower other player's income.
Basically my question is: how much space a player needs to make main business in a secondary industry already used by other player? (this answer is important because will set the space/tiles).
Note: The answer to last question must be related to server station spread or fixed values. But, as question is made, agree too that's enough space for your main business!

Well... was only to be a reply to Andreas... but escalated a bit to realities ingame, but please, don't forget the question above!

Edit: ofc, there's the solution of making secondary idustries private... as mentioned in previous posts

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: Andreas on September 14, 2012, 12:23:33 pm

I like the idea of only allowing competition if it is your main industry, it is simple and prevents competition just to ruin the other party. As for the free space, I think the most simple solution would be to leave at leat 2 of the 4 sides open, even with your tracks. This will be easy to undersrand and clear and it does not have to rely on calculations by the game.

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: geo on September 14, 2012, 10:48:24 pm

sincerly, i like this idea :at least the same size and shape as your own stations covering the same resource
because if i can make a station, another player should be able to do it too in the same way if he wants to
this is my opinion :D

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: ST2 on September 15, 2012, 10:54:12 pm

so basically: how much space a player needs to make main business in a secondary industry already used by other player? given interesting answers as seen.

the "the 50% rule" is not a bad concept... only needs to be respected ^^

Since the 1st post on this thread there's lots of suggestions... now opinions about them or new ideias are still welcome :)

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: Waldo on May 20, 2013, 06:00:48 am

Why is this post dormant? I'm seeing more and more people violating this rule nowadays. We either change it or strictly enforce it.

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: al on May 20, 2013, 06:02:14 pm

Quote from: Waldo on May 20, 2013, 06:00:48 am

Why is this post dormant? I'm seeing more and more people violating this rule nowadays. We either change it or strictly enforce it.

I always read the rule as "two sides" only. Occasionally if the industry is awkwardly placed I might be forced to be on 3 sides but I'd ensure that its simply one rail or something on the extra side so that another player can still place their station within range with ease.

See screenshot with "2 sides" and then one using "3 sides" but still room where the other stations both touch the oil easily enough.

Title: Re: Change of rule 4 (partly "the 50% rule")
Post by: Andreas on May 20, 2013, 06:16:48 pm

Indeed there are usually enough ways to build a station so that there is room for competition. Also 2 sides is a good rule of thumb. The problem however usually does not arise around primary industries, but around towns, where people build roads to grow them or a lot of stations and at secondary industries where dozens of trains drop off and take cargo. And that is where the hard part is to judge is some cases.