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[DONE] Terraforming limit

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Re: Terraforming limit
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2012, 04:33:33 pm »
 

Geert

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i love mountains ingame

it means nobody else is building there so i can drape long rails over them.
I you build youre network smart and use enough loco's mountains are no problem.

(dont build depots or stupid corners before a steep hill  :P )

the only train that has problems with hills is the uu37 (lacks speed and power) but you got the floss after 3 years anyway  :D
 

Re: Terraforming limit
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2012, 07:40:29 pm »
 

alex879ro

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Ughh, Zero Income u wrote me an entire book...

I won`t even quote but just place a number on each idea

1: About banning people who abuse the map: It`s very hard to see who was the one who abused the map and doing that everytime is pointless

Just like our banlist....bans never stop cause new and new people learn to play so we got continuos activity. So saying "ah, we`ll just ban them "if they do the same doesn`t quite works

2: Distance is greater? That works for math ...but not Open TTD cause a hill has the same amount of tiles as a plain does or a sea, or a mountain. Distance is calculated in tiles....so distance is the same...

3: I`m not taking your suggestion to extreme, i just underlined that the only place where we would need to raise limit would be in case of 2 or more players. However, since i found out that it`s not possible, i`ve stopped.

I am not taking anything to extreme, it`s just that I got a lot of experience in s5, St2 does too. Geert is our no1 player and he plays mostly long goal so his experience is very good too. If all of us say that u need to adapt your tracks to the terrain, isn`t it obvious that this is the answer?

In conclusion I`m just saying that I do not support your proposal and consider it unecesary, but ...it`s only my opinion....it`s a democracy so the majority decides.


 

Re: Terraforming limit
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2012, 10:58:09 pm »
 

Cossack

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Would it be possible to change the time it takes to 'reload'  to 1 tile per second instead of 1 tile per 2 seconds? also, zero, doubling it is maybe a little extreme but a 50% would be nice. If i'm building a line with 3+ tracks its impossible to even get over a little lake with that limit but the thing that irritates me most is having to wait for it to reload, it's super frustrating 
 

Re: Terraforming limit
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2012, 11:41:30 pm »
 

YorVeX

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I don't really understand why you are against it. Why not grant the player the freedom to choose his own play style rather than force your own ideals upon him.
"his own play style" is a really fuzzy reason for lowering any limits. as admin you get everything declared as personal play style by players, including blocking other companies, building a station that consists of 10 tiles for the actual station and 20 tiles to cheat the coverage area higher, running a crash train to destroy vehicles of opponents...
where do you draw the line? you think it should be possible to terraform at least half area of max station size, the next person thinks it should be possible to remove small hills and bury small lakes, another one has been leveling all the land 20 tiles left and right from all his tracks because he thinks it looks nice ("yes Mr. Admin, i've been building like that for the last 10 years, can't make me change now!!!!!!!").

you say "common, now your going overboard" and i say "your proposal is already exaggerated, go around that lake and take the increased distance penalty as all players have to". at least it's always fair, all other players have the same limit - what varies is only how well players are able to adapt to it.
when i raise the limit i will on the other hand limit the play style of players that have learned to play with the landscape: if their competitors just buries a lake in their way it means they got a disadvantage if they don't. so they're kind of forced to also play against the landscape instead of playing with it (at least when they want to win).


I also only suggested to double the current value which would then be 100. Imo 200 is probably too much.
i don't think you have understood yet how the limit works.

there is two settings, one for the burst you can do within one action that at the same time also defines the maximum in your "pool" of tiles allowed to get terraformed. and there is another one that defines how quickly that pool regenerates (currently: 1 tile per day).
my suggestion was to increase only the burst but leave the regeneration as it is. that means you have a higher initial terraform allowance and you can terraform a 4 tiles wider area at once. however, it also uses up your pool of terraforming actions faster, so in total the map cannot be terraformed much more than before (only for those that wait a long time between doing big terraforms). what it changes is that you can make the area for your full station in one step.

maybe the easiest would be if you imagine it as some kind of an energy bar that slowly regenerates. and what we can configure is
1a) the maxium capacity of that energy bar (in terraformed/tiles)
1b) linked with capacity: the maximum amount of tiles you can terraform in one burst
2) how fast that energy bar regenerates

right now we got a maximum capacity of 50 tiles and regenerate 1 tile per game day to that energy. after 50 days regeneration stops because the energy bar is full again.

maybe now you can imagine a bit better what it would mean to raise it to 200 (but leave regeneration rate the same). effectively it does not mean you can terraform 4 times more tiles, maybe not even doubled, but that's not easy to calculate as it depends on how the player uses it.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 11:45:01 pm by YorVeX »
 

Re: Terraforming limit
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2012, 12:35:33 am »
 

ZeroIncome

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"his own play style" is a really fuzzy reason for lowering any limits. as admin you get everything declared as personal play style by players, including blocking other companies, building a station that consists of 10 tiles for the actual station and 20 tiles to cheat the coverage area higher, running a crash train to destroy vehicles of opponents...
where do you draw the line? you think it should be possible to terraform at least half area of max station size, the next person thinks it should be possible to remove small hills and bury small lakes, another one has been leveling all the land 20 tiles left and right from all his tracks because he thinks it looks nice ("yes Mr. Admin, i've been building like that for the last 10 years, can't make me change now!!!!!!!").

"Where do we draw the line" - That's what this whole topic is about.
As for the other points there are rules that you just have to follow.

(Yes I am aware there is also a rule against large landscape changes, but even with double the limit it would still be difficult to make such huge changes.)

you say "common, now your going overboard" and i say "your proposal is already exaggerated, go around that lake and take the increased distance penalty as all players have to". at least it's always fair, all other players have the same limit - what varies is only how well players are able to adapt to it.
when i raise the limit i will on the other hand limit the play style of players that have learned to play with the landscape: if their competitors just buries a lake in their way it means they got a disadvantage if they don't. so they're kind of forced to also play against the landscape instead of playing with it (at least when they want to win).

But why does everybody have to adapt? Terraforming is part of the game. Also have you played on #5 recently? Many players just go straight over the water.
Also I say your exaggerating, because you are. Just read what you just wrote... Bury a lake... really?


As for whether I understand it or not - I do, I actually read all of those links you posted and read all that technical malarkey even though I don't have a server myself.
I am referring to the burst rate as well. I was trying to reason with you. I can't image 200 tiles and it would be great, but 200 seems like quite a lot. From my experience if I just had double the burst rate I could do things much easier.

Updating the recharge rate would also be nice, but I don't want to push you guys too far. All I want is double the burst rate, anymore then that is a bonus.


Some other things that were pointed out to me on the server:
- Alex said it's a democracy let's just see what people say. Well first off it seems here that certain peoples opinion matter more than others. Secondly not everybody that plays on n-ice servers is represented here. That's nobody's fault, but it's something to take into consideration? He said if 90% of the people don't come to vote then what do you do. Well I thought about it and I think if 90% of the people didn't come to vote you need to find a new way to get their votes.
- ST2 said that his screenshot explained it well enough and that I was stupid to think otherwise. - Well I'm sorry I play this game just to have some fun and money isn't always my primary concern.
 

Re: Terraforming limit
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2012, 02:11:03 pm »
 

YorVeX

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well if burst rate raised from 50 to 100 is everything you ask for i don't see any problem. but have you done some tests locally whether that really helps you in the situations where the terraform limit got in your way? that's what we usually do before we change settings. you shouldn't forget that lowering/raising land at one spot affects 4 tiles already. i think it is really hard to think about that only in theory, testing it is the best you can do.

But why does everybody have to adapt? Terraforming is part of the game.
not everything that is technically possible in the game should be done, just think of active blocking. whether something is "part of the game" or not is a question of personal taste.

Also have you played on #5 recently? Many players just go straight over the water. Also I say your exaggerating, because you are. Just read what you just wrote... Bury a lake... really?
that's why i said you will say i am going overboard with my examples. i did that on purpose to make my point clear.

Alex said it's a democracy let's just see what people say. Well first off it seems here that certain peoples opinion matter more than others.
i think describing our way of making decisions with political terms won't give a good match. you are right that things like paying the server, administering it, living with ugly things like insults from players and often enough not being able to play yourself because of so much admin work to do gives opinions of certain people more weight. even more because those people think about their suggestions a minute more instead of just saying "i want more, higher, better, faster...".
don't get me wrong, i am not talking about you here, you have shown that you can do proper reasoning and stand your point very well and with good arguments.


that doesn't mean we don't want to listen to our players, but every change should go through some kind of assessment by being able to stand a discussion on the forums (even decisions that are only made among admins are done like that).

Secondly not everybody that plays on n-ice servers is represented here. That's nobody's fault, but it's something to take into consideration? He said if 90% of the people don't come to vote then what do you do. Well I thought about it and I think if 90% of the people didn't come to vote you need to find a new way to get their votes.
you are right but the "find a new way to get their votes" is the difficult part. for example we could do votes in-game with a simple question like "do you want more terraforming?". while reading that question you already know what the answer to such a question will always be, probably even by players who don't care. "more? yeah! great, i always want MOOAAAHHRRR!". such questions are always suggestive, even when you negate it to say "do you want the terraforming more limited?" most people will blindly vote for "No".

the above mentioned assessment by a forum discussion makes sure everyone has thought about the effects of a change before it is implemented. if that system filters out all players that don't think properly about their suggestions and only want to click a "Yes" button somewhere i actually think it's a good system.

To make a counter argument against: "the threshold where your so-called "legit" players stop complaining is the setting where an evil player floods a full corner of the map easily"
Is that you'd have to be pretty dedicated to the dark side to get enough money to then do something like that with the additional fact looming over your head that you will probably be banned by the very active admins on the n-ice servers.  ;D
you would be surprised how many people are "dedicated to the dark side". before the terraforming limit existed we had a lot of instances where the whole map was flooded by rich players. whole games were destroyed, sometimes once per day. you ban the player but neither does that bring you the game back nor will it prevent the same thing from happening again tomorrow, a new idiot will certainly come and do the same shit.

but that shouldn't affect our discussion too much, as long as you only ask for a small increase of the burst limit  ;)
 

Re: Terraforming limit
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2012, 03:41:54 am »
 

YorVeX

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don't see voices here against it, but also not many for it, so i ran a quick query on IRC. the result basically said "yes, do it":
Code: [Select]
[01:12:31] <ST2> on the burst... I'll go...
[01:13:02] <ST2> ofc... the renew keeps the same
[01:13:09] <Batt> !vote
[01:13:42] <Kadar> I think it sounds good
[01:13:03] <alex879ro> I don`t consider it necesary...but have it his way
[01:17:17] <bunny> btw !vote

new terraform burst limit of 100 will be applied to all servers, might take some time until it becomes effective for all of the servers.