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Messages - YorVeX

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Complaints / Re: Complaint against admin Kyrre
« on: July 08, 2021, 10:29:15 pm »
Can you tell at which server and which date/time (UTC if possible or at least specify the time zone) this occurred so that we can check logs?

But let me already warn you that our general stance here is that if an admin tells you something you are supposed to comply. It's a very simple thing and I believe it should be obvious. From your own words here it sounds like that's exactly not what you did. Instead you started to discuss and ask how to file complaints.
Even if you had good reasons for this, during the game while an admin is waiting for you to fix rule breaks he pointed out is not the right time and place for that.
Unfortunately keeping an admin busy with endless discussions is something that people often think is a viable tactic to get by with a rule break or sometimes just to troll the admin, because they're angry they were reprimanded. So we are very sensitive to these things and tolerance for turning the in-game chat into a discussion forum while the actual rule breaks are still not being worked on is rather low.

Especially rule 3 is a good target for that, as by its nature it always leaves a bit of room for interpretation. Which is exactly why our detailed rules say this:

You can still come to IRC or post on the forums if you think a rule should be changed or if they should cover a specific situation and we can talk it through in an objective discussion. But while in the game, do as the admin asks you to do, even if you don't see it in the rules. Don't argue with an admin during the game on how you understand the rules in a different way – obey the admin instructions first, then join us for a factual discussion later.

Ban/Unban Requests / Re: Banned. Guessing its from old IP ban.
« on: November 01, 2020, 02:34:55 am »
The IP you posted from is listed on dronebl, marking it as a system that was used as an IRC spam drone (litmus/sdbot/fyle). Since this indicates malicious activity we block players from IPs that are on this list automatically, which is why this IP is banned on our servers.
However, if you use on your IP you can see that the entry is from 2017. If that's a dynamic IP range this probably doesn't apply to you. Your best bet is to request removal there, mentioning that it's a dynamic IP and the record from 2017 doesn't apply to you. I don't see any reason why they should reject this request. After they removed it you should be able to join our servers again (with some delay though).

News / Server machine removal
« on: July 06, 2016, 07:19:49 pm »
Our "RAxxOR" server machine (hosting the "r" OpenTTD servers using the address was kindly sponsored by Kwissy during the last 2 years. At this point many thanks for that!

Now that the 3rd year started we were discussing whether we actually needed this server for another year and came to the conclusion that we don't. The average player count simply doesn't justify to keep this magnitude of computing power around and use Kwissy's generousness for another year.

So I don't expect any negative impact and there is no reason to be sad when RAxxOR will have its last running day on 18th of July.

Many thanks again to Kwissy <3

Apply to become an admin! / Re: Admin
« on: September 05, 2015, 12:58:40 pm »
Yes, sure thing!

The current score formula doesn't reward using fewer vehicles to keep server load down. Of course that's a side effect but server load isn't an issue for us right now, we got more technical capacity than we got ideas for new servers. And in general there are more servers than players in the OpenTTD world anyway, no shortage of that.

Because usage of long or short trains is mostly a matter of preference or personal taste your next assumption might be that the reason for the current formula is that n-ice admins simply prefer long trains. While that might be true or not (I am not collecting statistics on that :P) this is not the reason either. The most part of the calculation is coming from me and I definitely preferred short trains while I was still playing more actively and creating the initial formula.

The actual problem is that the calculations are still based on CV a lot for historical reasons: when we started with this there was no admin interface in OpenTTD. The only way to get values from a running game to do something with was the console. And that didn't show you anything useful about companies except Perf and CV.
At first this doesn't seem like much of a problem. CV is the obvious choice if you want to set a goal for a value that an automatic goal system could measure the progress on. And as a goal in terms of deciding when the game ends it is as good as everything else (e.g. end year reached). We're still depending on it for that and it doesn't work too bad.
But the concept of also taking CV for a (high)score system is flawed, because it can be manipulated by players. Players found out pretty fast that buying vehicles increases their CV, while at the same time any game will reach a point where money doesn't matter at all. Play long enough and you will always have enough money to max out on all vehicle limits, boosting your CV to heights you would otherwise never reach - and therefore this also applies to their score.
And even if the players didn't deliberately cheat the system: players with shorter trains would always have a higher CV than players with about the same network size but longer trains (because longer trains mean less engines that would increase the CV).

Fortunately from the console you could also see how many vehicles a company had, so even in the early days we were able to implement the obvious counter-measure: give a score penalty for having more vehicles. Now over time OpenTTD offered new ways to query more data from the game and our score calculation became more sophisticated, mitigating the effect of vehicles on the score a bit, but even today it's still strong enough that it could be used for cheating if there was no penalty for vehicles.
So any step in the direction of allowing players with short trains more points also means allowing cheating players more points.

That's why at some point it occurred to me that there won't be a way with the current system to improve much in this field. Also there are other issues with the system like the fact that (from score perspective) there is no motivation for players to play a partial game: If they play from the start but miss the end of the game (even when they reach the goal) they don't get anything. If they start late and finish a game they will probably not win it, hence also having a big disadvantage.

I must admit that I have been saying this for a long time and the system still is not here. But anyway: there is a whole new score system planned which will work entirely different. For starters, you will get scores every quarter so you can gain something even if you haven't got much time and join a 3 hour game for only the first hour. And you will get scores based on many many game parameters (and also score punishments, e.g. for vehicles with negative income, or crashes...) and can also get bonuses from certain events additionally to the quarterly points you get for progression in the current game.

The new scores are called "XP" (you might know the concept of experience points from other games) and are partially working like an ELO system, where you get more XP when playing against players that got more XP than you (while you get less XP for playing against "weaker" players).
You shouldn't forget that even the most sophisticated score system will never be able to act like a real jury and give you points for a "beautiful" or "aesthetic" or "well-thought" network. And even if it was technically possible: such things are a question of taste, just like the question whether you prefer long or short trains.

Instead you are stuck with taking the hard values that you can measure while at the same time these numbers can never tell the whole truth on their own, also specific numbers can always be cheated on. The sad truth I have learned is that it is really easy to find problems with a scoring system but infinitely hard to solve even only one without creating 3 new problems on the other side of the medal at the same time.
IMHO the best thing you can do (and that's the idea for the new score system) is to take as many game statistics into account as possible. That way you enforce a gameplay where players make use of many aspects of the game and by giving single values less weight remove the incentive to cheat on this value and at the same time more freedom (e.g. being able to leave the decision about longer or shorter trains to the player, because it wouldn't matter for the scoring).

To cut things short: I don't see any way how we could take the current system and solve the aforementioned problems by a monolithic change. The problem is the system itself.

Anyway, thank you for putting some thoughts into it and making this good (and correct) observation about one of the problems the current system has. As I have shown here creating a good score system is not an easy task and we certainly need as much input and ideas for it as we can get.

If you want to dive deeper into this topic I recommend reading the additional points topic where most of the ideas for the new system originated from.

Offtopic / Re: Other games I play...
« on: August 20, 2014, 12:32:57 pm »
i am not the type of guy who plays a single player game a second time, nevertheless worth mentioning are the following games i have played in the past:
  • second sight (unique story and gameplay)
  • the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series (best "postapocalyptic style" atmosphere i have experienced in a game so far, expecially in the first game)
  • fahrenheit (biggest strength here is the story, it's more like an interactive movie than a game)
  • heavy rain (same as for fahrenheit, also from same publisher)
  • the last of us (good postapocalyptic atmosphere, good story)
  • assassins creed 3 and 4
  • GTA (i played GTA 1 and 2 but didn't like them very much - but i finished every game starting from GTA 3, with GTA san andreas and GTA 5 being my favourites)

as for multiplayer games i played Minecraft some time but not recently. maybe at some later point i will play it again. also i played natural selection a lot.
the only online game i am still actively playing as of today is counter strike: global offensive. there i am mostly playing matchmaking with a fixed team of steam friends using teamspeak, currently i am proudly holding the "distinguished master guardian" rank. but it seems that i am the only one in the OpenTTD community that also plays CS, otherwise there doesn't seem to be any overlapping between OpenTTD and CS players.

Suggestions / Re: Tournament points
« on: July 11, 2013, 10:42:18 am »
regarding regular scores: i know the Elo system and i've seen the practical implementation in multiplayer games too (e.g. CS:GO competetive games), but it is hard to realize when it's not only multiple opponents but when they are also able to hop on and off the running game at every minute (the new score system aims to give scores not only at the end of the game). also it would mean that players always need to have other players on their games which have an account and are logged in - a limitation i don't want.

that's why the new system won't be pure Elo, nevertheless the scores will be influenced by other players on your game and how much scores they got in comparison to you.

Suggestions / Re: [Poll] Competition on secondary industries
« on: July 04, 2013, 10:28:42 pm »
now that the K servers are gone we only have servers with the changed rule left. i wonder why nobody mentioned it yet, does it mean people agree with the current situation or you rather want a mixture again (as Cossack indicated).

General / Re: Achievements
« on: May 12, 2013, 04:20:43 pm »
that's planned, also read here. just that development progress is slow right now, as i got a lot of private and business stuff going on right now.

Ban/Unban Requests / Re: unban me, please
« on: April 05, 2013, 07:36:57 am »
well, for sure it is noteworthy the 2 chat levels:
1: when I'm trying to give some help (because person in question got some blanks (lets call it like this now));
2: when the help it's not needed;
Between this 2 steps things escalated for obvious reasons, already stated and shown, but ignored! Basicaly, someone that do NOT respect rules enforced with/to other players gets immunity. Other players got permanent ban for less (includes banned by him for similar situations)!
i checked the current ban list and the ban reason texts basically point to these things:
1. making a vehicle crash train
2. active blocking of other players (with a stopped train on a road or with reserved land in front of where someone else was building)
3. insulting other players and admins
when this is "less" i can't see what alex has done that would be "more" than what is in the above list.

After that, why not being sarcastic, meanwhile confused with "trolling". Never was and never will be my intention of trolling n-ice community.
i believe you that it is not your intention but repeatedly interrupting normal conversations to offend someone is nothing else. or if you don't like the wording call it whatever you want, still needs a ban to stop the person that does this. even more so when it's not the first time it happens and seems you will never stop.

Btw, what I expect from an OpenTTD admin (or Operator, not Admin - because 2nd one is too mainstream (intentional irony, sarcasm or whatever)), is at least knowing where binary version configuration is saved and where xShunter gets that info (dedicated servers with multi cfg files are tricky here when updating, but solution is simple).
that's your opinion, not a reason to offend someone on the chat. are you going to everyone not doing what you expect from his role and call him incompetent now?

When I use "incompetent" word it's because " i` m a bit rusty with xShunter`s error" when we all know that being rusty (smutty) is a natural state (even at this time).
i don't understand what you mean and i still don't see any explanation why you came up with this offense (and it's nothing else, nobody wants to be called incompetent). and i might add that even i as the developer of xShunter, when asked, did not know this error well enough to know the solution (that's why i have it on my list to check it on the weekend.). i have a shade of memory that i have seen it in the past but i don't remember the details. could as well call myself "rusty" about it, even if that makes me incompetent in your eyes.

The Quakenet answer/words... pretty wimple to understand: at bottom, why players can't find Admins there (Operators or whatever)?
how's that alex' fault? if anything it would be my duty to find a solution (i actually planned to offer a real chat client instead of all the webchats but so far never got around to, maybe should simply remove the QuakeNet chat anyway). again, no reason to offend especially him about it, out ouf all people that are not in this IRC.

About the quote, the proof that's not random and was applied on the right moment, with the obvious words I used after, it's on the ban appeared immediately after. That showed the fear in the words the words he used. I know respect people who give respect, not those who consider themselves superior. And that happened many times! (lucky players that dnt see chats)!
i explained why i think the ban was justified, it was necessary to stop the attacks you would have never stopped yourself - as you clearly show here too.

Now sincerely xOR, I don't see the need of you leave to stop work on the new score system! And for that I've changed the Wiki: person that don't know/understand OpenTTD mechanics and/or his cfg files, don't respect rules enforced, rusty on xShunter errors and so on... For sure can easily do the public version developments/upgrades.
doesn't make sense.

Unless NEITHER that he can do properly! And I ask... Why? Answer is simple: play until get full powers and server access, then you can go on and play other games (despite the fact that not respecting rules on this one, more then that are only speculations, but confirmable by the people around).
i don't understand what you are trying to say. maybe you can rephrase it?

Even yesterday when I've spotted a bug (major) in watch window (player) answer was: "they were bugged since 1.2.3...". I've said " thank you for the reports..." (ironically, ofc).
you constantly say he should maintain the client. how does that fit you expecting him to give you bug reports about it now? would have probably gotten him a reply like "fix it yourself" and hints that he is incompetent so i can very well imagine that you would not be the first person he had in mind to report a bug to.
and remember you excluded him from even getting the admin version that has the watch window? it's a bit weird to expect bug reports from him for a client you refuse him to get.

Only now found it and fixed it. From here all you can discover my will of continue my work.
no i can't. i shouldn't be supposed to "discover" anything at all. you changed the official page to get our client from to say that alex will do it and that's your statement, in an official place. here is the mail i got from the wiki about your change.
clearly says you won't do it anymore. and even if you change your mind about it the 20th time now, you are a too unreliable candidate about this. nobody knows for what personal reasons you will tell us tomorrow you won't do it anymore. also it seems a lot like you abuse your client for "listen to my complaints about alex or i won't do the client anymore" and this is not the type of discussion i will participate in.
for sure you will continue to fix bugs and enhance the client, but that will rather be to the benefit of the BTPro client. i just hope for the sake of Frank that you won't start playing such games with them too in the future if you don't agree with one of their admins or decisions.

To Finish, I have only more 4 points to say:
- At least now players know who's making latest server changes (like "cfg file, what is that?... Don't worry, I'm Admin... sorry, Operator") ^^;
- Rules because I've quited admin team (lets keep this version) wasn't changed, isn't respected... unless someone complains! And who complains because of a SIMPLE rule... can get banned (happened couple times);
- You can accept an Admin (damn!!!..., Operator - I always keep forgetting this ^^) that don't respect server rules (but enforce them), same as I can accept any kind of ban here;
- That's why I'll accept future bans (with all the respect that I have for xOR's work and probably he knows what was my efforts for n-ice team- without the need of "titles");
mixture of random rants, i don't see any reason to really respond to them bit by bit. essence seems to be that you don't like alex saying "i am not an admin but an operator". i must admit that i don't understand his quote either (it's not my understanding that taking additional operator duties would mean giving away normal admin duties), but on the other hand we have no guidelines about those roles, so it's open to interpretation. you don't like his interpretation? fine, we got it. now calm down and stop mentioning it at every occasion and creating an offense out of it.

it seems a bit like you are just pissed HE was given those extra privileges and not you. fun fact: i would have given it to you too at that time, it's just that alex very consistently kept on asking me (he waited for MONTHS!) and when i finally had some time to do a training on this it was obviously him i remembered to be very ambitious about it.
can't say i have ever regretted that decision regarding his help with the servers. he basically kept them operational alone, in a time where they crashed and had bugs constantly and i was not online to help him for 2 months.

and now every day you do your weird actions and show offensive/aggressive behavior you prove a bit more i made a good decision and i am a bit more glad that it's not you who has the sensitive access to the machine.

Ban/Unban Requests / Re: Captain Jack
« on: April 04, 2013, 10:12:59 pm »
well sometimes "clone" just means they are both playing on the same connection (e.g. brothers). the server cannot tell those situations apart - it does not know whether it is two people on the same connection or really someone cloning (connecting several OpenTTD clients to get an advantage), which is also the reason why we don't kick or ban clones but only issue a warning.
the idea is that after the warning you can watch them - is the second company by the "clone" only created to do destruction work, so that his main company doesn't get a bad rating at towns? or is it a fully active company (maybe even with activity at the same time as the company of the other player)? also if the clone joins the same company it usually is two people playing together, as for cloning this wouldn't give any advantage.

sorry for the long text, what i am trying to say is that such situations cannot be checked only by some lines of chat log, best always is to have an admin check on that situation (but please don't call an admin for every clone warning, admins see the warnings anyway).

Ban/Unban Requests / Re: unban me, please
« on: April 04, 2013, 10:08:09 pm »
i wasn't there when this happened but checking the log i see a normal conversation about various things not related to OpenTTD between alex and arcanoid which is at some point frequently interrupted by you with completely unrelated things like
- pointing out how alex would be incompetent because he asks to fix things instead of doing things like making Aphid's script work (like you do)
- sarcastically stating that apparently alex would be too cool to join our QuakeNet channel, because you can't see him there (where none of the other OpenTTD admins beside you, Der_Herr and me is, so who cares for that anyway?)
- throwing in a random quote from alex where he says he is not admin (which obviously does not make sense if taken out original of context like this)

and after the ban on the IRC channel you joined a game server and when asked you say why: to get banned there and to report it. what a weird attitude is this?

and even when during the conversation you are mostly ignored except for a few "please stop it" type of responses you continue that stuff. how's that not provocation? afterwards you even boldly call it "truths". i'd rather call it trolling, which consequentially results in a ban.

one more observation: all these bad things only happen at night (when you are at or return from the pub?). but no interpretations from my side here, just what i see.

however, all this was not enough for you: some hours later you change the wiki page about the n-ice client to state how alex would be its new maintainer. when neither is alex a developer nor would it make any sense to give him this task (you could have picked any other random person). also: how is all this related to you providing a service to an OpenTTD community or not? why do you let others suffer (by not providing the client anymore) for your personal little vendetta?
and to give the story an even more embarrassing end you thought you would have to bring it to the public forum. well, you got your attention now.

so much for a quick report of what i saw happening so far. it's not truths, just my observations, so you get a reflection how your behavior is seen by others (and someone else might have a different view, but the uncut log is up there for everyone to make his own opinion).
i couldn't say that i actually understand anything of what has happened there. the only thing i know is that this is really where i stop putting time into this, as this community is enough hard work without such negativity, we really don't need this kind of destructive activity. if you hate him so much: stay away from him. if you somehow transfer this hate on the whole n-ice community: stay away from it.

oh well, i guess this was my first harsh response to these occurrences in public and i doubt that any good will come out of this, but i also couldn't have left it unanswered. at this point i want to use a quote from the conversation this is all about:
<alex879ro> i`m actually enjoying this conversation so please don`t start your usual show

when the old ST2 we knew and loved left us it was already a loss for our community. now one more sad thing is that apparently i have to stop my work on the new score system (which would give XP quarterly and can work on CityBuilder servers) to learn how to maintain the patched client, which will also cost extra efforts for every new release in the future. and that's by no means alex' fault. it's yours. your decision, your action. and you punish us all for your low personal motives.

maybe we are lucky and someone with C/C++ skills who wants to help reads this? please contact me...

agree with alex, it's covered by rule 3: "Don't build stations or station parts that serve the sole purpose of [...] sabotaging other players [...]."

we will try to sensitize other admins about this too, these kinds of cases seem to occur more often these days. in the past it hasn't happened that often, so not all admins are trained on this yet. especially Taroon who is still quite new and was a bit unsure about it. next time he'll know, we all learn and improve every day.

Introduction / Re: Good news everyone!
« on: February 03, 2013, 10:16:10 am »
well you will learn many new stuff here by watching some guys playing

stealing ideas is always a good idea
hey, you stole that idea to steal ideas from me!  8)

Introduction / Re: Benspartan
« on: February 03, 2013, 10:15:14 am »
welcome, good to have you here Ben  ;)

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