n-ice.org OpenTTD Forum
Administration => Suggestions => Topic started by: Knogle on September 25, 2012, 03:58:34 pm
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This thread is made to collect all CityBuilder feedback.
FAQ
Q: Why don't add diamonds (or any other cargo) as requirement for town growth
A: We are making a GS (Game Scripts) version of CB, and currently it doesn't allow diamonds (or any other cargo) as a town effect.. hopefully it'll be possible as GS develops.
Changelog:
Oct 01 2012: New feature: Only towns with less than 500 inhabitants can be claimed.
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Give our test server a try, and let us know what you think.
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Towns with more than 2-3k ppl shouldn't be accessible for claimng.
Ex.:
In one of last games i was building my claimed town, but near me was a town, that i used huge for mail and passengers (especialy mail). Well... In some time I noticed, that this town is 5,4k. I claimed it and win. GG? Anyone could claim that town, so if some ppl will grow towns for such purpose the game can became in challenge of fast click for claiming.
Bribing off for some reason?
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Ah, yes.. that is a problem, it'll be looked into.. however I suggest you get passengers and mail from CITIES as they grow faster when provided with passengers.
Yes, bribing is off on the test server.. I guess it could be turned on, as you need to be able to build in your own town.
Towns with more than 2-3k ppl shouldn't be accessible for claimng.
Ex.:
In one of last games i was building my claimed town, but near me was a town, that i used huge for mail and passengers (especialy mail). Well... In some time I noticed, that this town is 5,4k. I claimed it and win. GG? Anyone could claim that town, so if some ppl will grow towns for such purpose the game can became in challenge of fast click for claiming.
Bribing off for some reason?
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Firstly hello. I love that city builder server, gratz to its builders. Anyway I love playing city builder games like Simcity since Simcity 3000, I have 4 suggestions:
1. Bigger map, 2056x2056 is better than 1024x512
2. Number of industries should be increase a lot (like double)
3.Bigger cities (ex: 850, 1k, 1.2k population) should not be a start cities. (my pop. limits are just example). And there should be a certain start city population.
4.Airplanes should be able BUT limit should be 5,6 or maybe 4 you choose :)
Thank you
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1. a 1024 x 1024 should be fine (to increase the chance of competition)
2. nah maybe a bit more
3. i like the idea to grow a city from 100 pop to 5000 :) so start veeery small
4. no airplanes ;)
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I noticed that if a player leaves the game and the company gets reset it is possible to take over the players city.
Yesterday i jumped in the game and could take a town with 3k.
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I noticed that if a player leaves the game and the company gets reset it is possible to take over the players city.
Yesterday i jumped in the game and could take a town with 3k.
"Population limit for starting a city" would fix it :)
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"Population limit for starting a city" would fix it :)
No it will not, since the company you buy has allready claimed it (I thik)
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"Population limit for starting a city" would fix it :)
No it will not, since the company you buy has allready claimed it (I think)
It could be disable. By the way I remembered more suggestions :
5.Some towns does not have water tower. Every town should have water tower and bank and diamonds should be a requirements for town to grow up like passenger good and food.
6.Mail requirements are too high, it should be a little bit decreased.
7. (I noticed lucky) building station or company building to another company's town should be disabled. I dont know how but I tried built bus station in middle of another's town and it worked.
8. (I know I just said it) Make able aircrafts. Limit could be 2 or 3 but it needs to be able.
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1. The final decision about map size isn't made yet, its still just a test server.
2. Number of industries is set to max, it cannot be higher.
3. Eventually it will be so that only towns with less than a 500 population can be claimed.
4. The final decision about this isn't made yet, (again) its still just a test server.
Firstly hello. I love that city builder server, gratz to its builders. Anyway I love playing city builder games like Simcity since Simcity 3000, I have 4 suggestions:
1. Bigger map, 2056x2056 is better than 1024x512
2. Number of industries should be increase a lot (like double)
3.Bigger cities (ex: 850, 1k, 1.2k population) should not be a start cities. (my pop. limits are just example). And there should be a certain start city population.
4.Airplanes should be able BUT limit should be 5,6 or maybe 4 you choose :)
Thank you
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5. That isn't possible without changing the source code of openttd itself, as GameScripts doesn't allow it, and we'd like to just use GameScripts. - so unless it's going to change in future openttd releases.. it'll remain like it is. (you can buy a water tower)
As for diamonds, it's the same issue as above, it's not possible with GameScripts.
6. I just adjusted it today, try a few games and see how it is now.
7. You can't block anyone from doing that, but we are working on a way to punish people when they do so.
8. See previous reply about aircraft/airports
*snip*
By the way I remembered more suggestions :
5.Some towns does not have water tower. Every town should have water tower and bank and diamonds should be a requirements for town to grow up like passenger good and food.
6.Mail requirements are too high, it should be a little bit decreased.
7. (I noticed lucky) building station or company building to another company's town should be disabled. I dont know how but I tried built bus station in middle of another's town and it worked.
8. (I know I just said it) Make able aircrafts. Limit could be 2 or 3 but it needs to be able.
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I don't think the watertower/bank not being present in all towns is abroblem because 1: they are relatively easy to fund and 2: I think it should be part of the stragety to select a good town, just like other factors such as available space, landscape, proximity to other cities and industries
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I don't think the watertower/bank not being present in all towns is abroblem because 1: they are relatively easy to fund and 2: I think it should be part of the stragety to select a good town, just like other factors such as available space, landscape, proximity to other cities and industries
i agree with Andreas here, the only idea i had was to maybe show a warning below the town name - so where cities have ".:: City ::." it will say "No water tower!" for towns without one. if a player decides to claim the town nevertheless the text will be replaced by the usual message indicating that the town was claimed by XY transport.
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"Population limit for starting a city" would fix it :)
No it will not, since the company you buy has allready claimed it (I thik)
you are talking about buying a company, but the others were talking about when a company got reset (so the town it had claimed is free again, but might have a raised population already). anyway, it's the same. if you buy a company you don't get its claimed town, you just keep yours.
and regardless of whether the company got bought or reset, its town will no longer be claimed. and as omer584 said if we got a limit for the town size that can get claimed this would solve it implicitly.
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it would be nice to have a server command which tells the amount of population served by one unit of each cargo type. or tell the amount of cargo needed to serve goal population. especially now during test phase when requirements may still change. for example now it's ~6.7 passengers, ~27 mail, 13.5 other cargo per inhabitant. so a 5000 population town needs ~747 passengers, ~186 mail, 371 other cargo.
in the end this could make various difficulty levels if you plan to make more city builder servers. instead of having different goal populations you could adjust these rates (which makes no difference actually but it helps keeping cities small)
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Today I made some research with n-ice city builder and another city builder server. (do not give name of server because of advertising rule but it is new version of closed luukland servers). Both are desert map both are nearly same years. Here are results :
n-ice OpenTTD city builder:
Foster bus : 16.4k $
Foster Oil Tanker : 15.3k $
Thomas Grain Truck : 14.5k $
CS2400 Diesel : 50 k $
5 tile road construction : 2.3k $
Other city builder :
Foster bus : 9.2k $
Foster Oil Tanker : 8.6k $
Thomas Grain Truck : 8.1k $
CS2400 Diesel : 56.2 k $
5 tile road construction : 970 $
This is really nice server and I want to increase server's success. I want to tell that firstly vehicle prices are changeable (you said it is impossible). Secondly people should be directed to bulid roads and buy trucks instead of building a long Oil line. These are all MY ideas
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I doubt we will ever make such command, If you know from the start how much cargo you need to reach the goal, your focus would be on reaching exactly these cargo requirements, so I'm trying to keep that calculating unpredictable.
The script has various settings that can change these requirements, so yes, in the end the difficulty can be adjusted differently for different servers, that's the plan.. so while such command is very doubtful to be implented, I'd rather like to hear what you think of the difficulty on the test server.
it would be nice to have a server command which tells the amount of population served by one unit of each cargo type. or tell the amount of cargo needed to serve goal population. especially now during test phase when requirements may still change. for example now it's ~6.7 passengers, ~27 mail, 13.5 other cargo per inhabitant. so a 5000 population town needs ~747 passengers, ~186 mail, 371 other cargo.
in the end this could make various difficulty levels if you plan to make more city builder servers. instead of having different goal populations you could adjust these rates (which makes no difference actually but it helps keeping cities small)
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That is because they are using a newgrf to change the prices, we are avoiding using newgrfs as it requires people to download it before being able to enter the server.. so yes, there is a difference, and in the end every server admin running this CB gamescript can easily choose to use a newgrf to change the pricing.
EDIT: As you can see you're required to download a newgrf called "LL Basecosts" to be able to join their server.
Today I made some research with n-ice city builder and another city builder server. (do not give name of server because of advertising rule but it is new version of closed luukland servers). Both are desert map both are nearly same years. Here are results :
*snip*
I want to tell that firstly vehicle prices are changeable (you said it is impossible).
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As long as you don't adjust the req function it is easy to calculate yourself (and anything other than linear would not make sense. Why should 4000 people require exponentially more food than 3000). There's no secret gained from the command. It just does the work for the players. For me this falls into difficulty settings. Like knowing the interest rate or amount of initial loan or a town's growth rate.
Regarding current difficulty.. I have not played with the scheduling interface so far. This is my last hope to synchronize deliveries. Other than that I find the game too difficult because I always have 4/5 and the missing cargos keep changing. One month this cargo is missing, then another. But that's not an issue with the current settings but with the game mode in general.
I doubt we will ever make such command, If you know from the start how much cargo you need to reach the goal, your focus would be on reaching exactly these cargo requirements, so I'm trying to keep that calculating unpredictable.
The script has various settings that can change these requirements, so yes, in the end the difficulty can be adjusted differently for different servers, that's the plan.. so while such command is very doubtful to be implented, I'd rather like to hear what you think of the difficulty on the test server.
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Ohh by the way I forgot to say:
1. It doesnt matter its Test server or Original server; Increase player limit from 10 to 16 PLEASE
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Regarding current difficulty.. I have not played with the scheduling interface so far. This is my last hope to synchronize deliveries. Other than that I find the game too difficult because I always have 4/5 and the missing cargos keep changing. One month this cargo is missing, then another. But that's not an issue with the current settings but with the game mode in general.
Try using transfer stations and taking it to the town with road vehicles. gradually increasing the ammount will make delivery more stable. Also using shorter trains can help..
I have not played a full game yet, but yesterday I grew a town from 400 to 3.5 k in 7 game years, so I don't think it is too difficult.
[Edit]
I think it might be good to set the grid to 3x3 as it makes is possible to easily cover the whole town with bus stops as illustrated in the screenshot attached:
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I think it might be good to set the grid to 3x3 as it makes is possible to easily cover the whole town with bus stops as illustrated in the screenshot attached:
something Andreas suggested on IRC and i asked him to post here, as i really think that is a good argument for 3x3 cities. anyone not agreeing here?
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I think it might be good to set the grid to 3x3 as it makes is possible to easily cover the whole town with bus stops as illustrated in the screenshot attached:
something Andreas suggested on IRC and i asked him to post here, as i really think that is a good argument for 3x3 cities. anyone not agreeing here?
I agree
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You should know that 3x3 is the grid where town grows the slowest. Best is the original roads (see the algorithm in the source).
This is of course just one factor of the town growth. But when building roads by towns is disabled, you can choose whatever layout you want.
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You should know that 3x3 is the grid where town grows the slowest. Best is the original roads (see the algorithm in the source).
This is of course just one factor of the town growth. But when building roads by towns is disabled, you can choose whatever layout you want.
ah, did not know that, and since towns are rather small at start anyways, it does not really matter what grid they have. Guess better leave it as is then.
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there is something strange about hqs in towns. when 2 hqs of different companies are in the same town, the town belongs to nobody although the town name still mentions the name of the first company. idk if its just with the !cv command or if it can really prevent someone from winning the game.
+1 for claiming towns smaller than 500 btw!
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Thanks for your feedback, will look into this first thing in the morning.
there is something strange about hqs in towns. when 2 hqs of different companies are in the same town, the town belongs to nobody although the town name still mentions the name of the first company. idk if its just with the !cv command or if it can really prevent someone from winning the game.
+1 for claiming towns smaller than 500 btw!
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Imo 700 million cv is far to much, or the pop is to low.
I played 2 times on the server and reacher 5000 within 12/13 years. 500 million on the k medium goal server took far more then 12 years. Like this, I think the growing of the city is just a side job, and gaining cv is the main.
But I will try 2 more rounds next weekend to see, how much cv is reach at 5000 pop.
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We don`t have that many playstyles to provide data about how population grows compared to company value. If you could provide us with data like made by your playstyle, it would be great:)
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I played in the city builder when it is in developement and in this moment, the only required requisite to win are population in your town.
Now require Company Value(CV), and i think that this is un-necesary in a city builder, becouse the objetive in the game is grow the town, not the company.
If necesary, can elevate the population required to 10.000 or 15.000 or 25.000 if the server suport this. But eliminate other requisites, like CV or perfomace.
Only population in our town.
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I played in the city builder when it is in developement and in this moment, the only required requisite to win are population in your town.
Now require Company Value(CV), and i think that this is un-necesary in a city builder, becouse the objetive in the game is grow the town, not the company.
If necesary, can elevate the population required to 10.000 or 15.000 or 25.000 if the server suport this. But eliminate other requisites, like CV or perfomace.
Only population in our town.
I think exactly the same.
With cv the game mode is no different from the all the others.
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our problem was that we also wanted to integrate CB into our existing score system. that score system does know nothing about "population", so you could have won a CB game but if your CV wasn't good you would have gotten 0 points for it. hence the idea to also show CV in the goal so it is transparent to players that CV is also necessary if you want to get scores. we cannot just add population to the score algorithm, because nobody knows what would be fair equivalents of CV and population. would it be fair to give the same score for 5000 inhabitants than for 100 million euro CV? or rather for 10,000 inhabitants?
and even if you find two numbers that are matching: growth rate of CV and population are different and both are not linear. it would be nearly impossible to integrate it in a fair way, arguments would arise whether CB servers got an advantage for scoring or "normal" servers.
anyway, remember the server name is TEST and it was meant to find out exactly about things like this. and what we have learned is that
- the additional CV goal contradicts the whole CityBuilder idea too much and fades out the actual town growing idea
- there won't be a fair way to include population goals into the current score system
next step is to draw conclusions from it and come up with new ideas. on this thread (http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=54.0) lots of ideas were discussed how the score system could be changed. it seems it goes into the direction of having a separate score system for CB, including a separate highscore table and personal scores.
also we are thinking about changing the system to give scores (or maybe call it XP then and give players ranks/levels?) every quarter to resolve the unfortunate situation where people play 80% of the time on a server but aren't connected when the game is won, not getting any points for it. with points/XP every quarter players could even go to a long run server and only participate for one or two game hours, still getting some points.
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Well, thanks for the modification, that i see already have been make.
But i think that structurate a separated score system for CB with separate highscore table and personal score is a aditional work that i not see justified. Unless you think having a lot of servers in CB mode.
Creating a new score system and mantaining two system of scoring is the first step to later having three, or why not four or five.... I think that it is not correct.
The score system must have unique for all server and all games, i think. Of course, the scoring system must be modified to integrate all game modes, and if necesarie, compute diferent things in diferent servers to get an homogeneous score.
Your preocupation in relationate CV and population is excesive, although you say, they grow separately and is not related. You must get x points for x population, at equal you get x point for x CV.
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and if necesarie, compute diferent things in diferent servers to get an homogeneous score.
your sentence points out the problem pretty well. did you notice you just said: "different + different = homogeneous"? it's full of variables that don't have anything to do with each other. how do you want to bring them together?
and yes, we do plan to run several CB servers, as this seems to be a very popular game mode. i don't see a reason to extrapolate when we are going from one score system to 2. if you're married for 1 year with your wife and have 1 child, i will tell you in 20 years you will have 20 children from 20 wives. do you think that's a correct interpretation of the tendency? ;D
Your preocupation in relationate CV and population is excesive, although you say, they grow separately and is not related. You must get x points for x population, at equal you get x point for x CV.
it doesn't work like this, CV grows faster than population and it doesn't grow in a linear way. you might have 10 million for 5,000 population. then you got 100 million while at 7,000 population. then you got 500 million at 9,000 population.
it will be more like f(x) = 2 * (x - 2)³ - 0,0005 * (x-2)² +2 or something.
tell me the formula how they are related and we can do it ;)
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Hello guys,
This is more a bug report for the CB server but didnt know where to put it;
Yesterday me and a friend were playing a bit on the citybuilder server trying to stresstest the private area around a town owned by a player.
We found a few things but one i saw already mentioned which was you can build a HQ inside another players town and leave it there.
The other ones:
-When you take a town where a traintrack was already build the train track doesnt disappear (which is correct imo), but when adding signals to the tracks the tracks get removed.
-If you are fast enough with building a depot and releasing an engine you can avoid the autoremove. After that the depot will stay there aswell as the tracks/roads the vehicle has traveled over. (I dont wanna tell the trolls but it has to be mentioned and i didnt see it yet).
-After a reset the signs (sometimes?) which give the area size stay there
Also i saw you discussing over a point system for cb compared to the CV games. Tbh theres only one good formula for it and thats using the expired gametime for your company to get to the goal for the main calculation. Also include competition (although the map is big enough), and the amount of people in company, starting year etc.
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My impressions after playing:
1) Station-walking not working on first server. It should be turned on. I cant imagine playing on CB without it. I also wanted to mention only 5 length of station but I understand that you want to have balance between goal and resources, and as a result time of play.
2) Server k1 was very laggy. Many times I was disconnected due to this.
3) There are too many cities! It would be far more better to make 20 cities with 4-5k inhabitants than 200 or more like it is now. As far as i know competition in cities is allowed so there will be pax for everyone. I am proposing this cause there is very limited space although map is big. Imagine 10 players and every needs to do network of different cargors (pax,mail,water,food,goods). Instead of big number of towns I would slighlty increase number of industries. But slightly.
4) I would add diamonds needed for city grow. Lets say from 3500.
5) and last but not least, points. I won the the game but I didnt get any points. I dont remember what was the reason of it but I was really ... disspointed? (to say the least) 2-3 hours of exciting play and 0 pts gained. :(
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Hey solo,
Thanks for your feedback, the private area thing is still in development, so your feedback is appreciated.
We will add this to our list of issues, Thanks again.
Hello guys,
This is more a bug report for the CB server but didnt know where to put it;
*snip*
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Hey TechNoir,
Thanks for all your info, I only chose to respond to some of them, as the rest is about server settings, these doesn't need responses and will be taken into consideration as for the server settings.
1) Station-walking not working on first server. It should be turned on. I cant imagine playing on CB without it. I also wanted to mention only 5 length of station but I understand that you want to have balance between goal and resources, and as a result time of play.
Actually, station-walking should not be allowed at all, this means you can actually deliver water to a different town than your own and it still counts; if you're really talking about satellite stations, the current rules doesn't allow them, and frankly we don't know yet if we are going to allow them on CB servers eventually.
4) I would add diamonds needed for city grow. Lets say from 3500.
It is not possible to add diamonds or any other cargo using GS (game scripts), this would require a patched server, and we want to make a gamescript CB, so we're limited by the features GS supports.. keep in mind that GS is a fairly new in ottd and things might develop over time.
5) and last but not least, points. I won the the game but I didnt get any points. I dont remember what was the reason of it but I was really ... disspointed? (to say the least) 2-3 hours of exciting play and 0 pts gained. :(
See YorVeX's post above, keep in mind that it *IS* a test server
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Ok I understand :)
What is the minimum to get at least 1 point? :P
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What is the minimum to get at least 1 point? :P
have a higher CV :)
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Ok but if the goal is 5000 people and I will get it , what my cv should be?
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since we set the CV goal to 0 i don't think it is possible at all. the current score algorithm does not consider CV higher than the goal CV, hence your CV is always treated as being 0 and you never get scores. check for your additional points thread for ideas about a new score system, until something like that is in place there probably won't be any scoring on CB servers.
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I noticed at the citybuilder server its possible to make multiple industries at each city.
So it's quite easy to make a wood train crossing the map where you make 10 wood cutters (dont remember the name atm) at the start to a factory to the other side of the map. Then you easily get 10 million a year and can build mass food production then its way to easy to finish the map.
So imo it should not be possible to exploit multiple industries at each town that provide transportation goods.
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hey i found a bug (dont know if someone else said it before)
i wanted to build a line and i got the message ''sorry, you cannot build in an area that someone else has claimed''
i made a screenie its obvious no had claimed the area at that time (maybe earlier but he resetme and left i guess)
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Understood your point of view...i`ll make some experiments with the server tomorrow...and see what results i can come up with...
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thanks already for your efforts, i hope you will be able to find how to reproduce it, otherwise it would be really hard to fix.
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I noticed a bug while playing CityBuilder yesterday. I relocated my HQ within my claimed town in order to reconfigure a train station. I had claimed the town when the population was about 450, and when I moved the HQ it was around 1,200. The map still showed the town as "clevername Transport's town" but I kept getting messages saying I can't claim towns larger than 500 and the score list showed my inhabitants as 0.
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While playing on k1 today I noticed that I can make track from outside to inside of claimed area and the system didn't demolish my tracks, while if I start building inside they works as expected.
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Thanks for reporting this, it should be fixed in the next test phrase, can't exactly say when it'll be though.
While playing on k1 today I noticed that I can make track from outside to inside of claimed area and the system didn't demolish my tracks, while if I start building inside they works as expected.
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maybe implement the no station walking rule? its very handy to crowded places like citybuilding cities
here andreas showed me how its done
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If you discover an exploit which creates wealth, gives an unfair advantage against other players or prevents the normal operation of the game server, report it to the OpenTTD developers so the vulnerability can be closed.
Don't abuse bugs or exploits because this only harms OpenTTD gameplay and destroys the gameplay of other people.
station walking is an exploit so it's already covered. but i still agree that it might be good to explicitly list it on the rules because it's quite attractive to do it on CB servers.
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and here's a quick heads-up of what has been changed to the CB development version compared to the version still running on our CB test servers:
- protection area signs now change accordingly when the company name was changed
- improved performance and stability of code for protection area signs (signs should be placed faster now)
- it is no longer possible to build in a protected area by placing the end of a road/rail/canal outside of the area
- towns can no longer be claimed when their protected area would overlap with the protected area of another claimed town
- fixed not all road stations getting removed from protected area when several were built by dragging the mouse
- fixed protection area not working when town was too close to the map edge
- fixed protection area signs not appearing when town was too close to the map edge
- added punishments for repeated protected area violations of a player (warning and move to spectators in first step, kick in second step)
- added protection area exceptions: companies that already built something in an area that is claimed later can continue to build there despite the protection
this will go live onto the servers at some point this weekend, but they will still stay TEST servers. what i think is still missing before the servers can become official (and drop the "TEST" from their names):
- new score system (see this thread (http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=54.0))
- protect players from having their town destroyed (or their protected area in general)
- support for loading a savegame, right now CB games cannot be restored from .sav files (GS doesn't work anymore afterwards)
- bugs found during the next test period
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Batt and I found one bug:
When a company gets reset and another company with the same number is started, the signs at the old location reapear. The area is not claimed but all 5 signs are there and even change names when the new company changes.
For the rest everything seems to work as expected.
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good find, there was a small mistake in the code so that the signs didn't get removed when a company was closed or merged. fixed it now, i think we are ready to upgrade server #1 and #k1 then.
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CityBuilder test servers #1 and #k1 have been updated, changelog two posts above